folditfandomcom-20200222-history
2012 august 13
<@auntdeen2> so I have a general question for the neighborhood... casp is almost over - which would you consider more important a priority? fixing current bugs - or shiny new tools? or something else? 02:00:40 since I'm fairly new, I still am not good with the existing tools yet! Don't need more to confuse me. :) 02:01:21 <@Madde> are there still significant bugs around? 02:01:24 <@auntdeen2> :-) so maybe more learning tools? video? 02:02:03 yes x100 02:02:21 <@auntdeen2> dunno madde - if not bugs then long requested features/fixes - from looking at the feedback 02:02:54 <@auntdeen2> the original request for a "pause" button that Brick did is years old 02:03:25 Solve the scisma between old and new interface, perhaps? 02:03:59 <@Madde> the devs probably waiting for the 5th anniversary of that request 02:04:08 lol 02:04:21 <@auntdeen2> Omni - there is history to that that you can search on the website - the selection interface is no longer supported 02:04:55 <@auntdeen2> but no question there are some advantages to it that *should* be integrated into the original 02:05:02 <@auntdeen2> lol Madde 02:05:53 when did foldit go on line? 02:06:05 <@auntdeen2> maybe just to me - but I'd rather have a pause button than any other new tool I can dream of 02:06:11 I know but theres still things that can only be done in the old interface, isn't there? 02:06:15 <@Madde> open beta started May 2008 02:06:29 <@auntdeen2> Omni - old = original? 02:06:49 <@auntdeen2> the selection came after 02:07:12 Is there any way to cycle through sidechain positions in the main interface? 02:07:29 <@Madde> I think downloading new recipes is the only thing I use the old interface for 02:07:36 <@auntdeen2> rofl - you can do that in selection?! 02:07:58 <@Madde> in selection it's a bit buggy 02:08:15 <@auntdeen2> madde - we are opposite then, I rarely use the selection interface 02:09:04 I went into selection by mistake today - couldn't get out fast enough 02:09:39 <@auntdeen2> I would love to see any script you downloaded automatically be shared to yourself 02:09:51 <@auntdeen2> that sounds like me, Brick 02:10:13 <@auntdeen2> it seems clunky to me 02:12:35 <@auntdeen2> so greep & harp - what kinds of thing - and how - would you like to see as teaching tools? 02:15:08 I don't know what else could be used as a teaching tool 02:15:29 <@auntdeen2> you mean video, yes? 02:18:45 video ;would be good, the baker lab does good video, but not many of them play. I would like to see folders show us in "real time" situations 02:19:23 <@auntdeen2> so... maybe webinars that could be recorded and placed on the website? 02:19:33 great idea 02:19:57 I think it would be helpful to have better classification of Recipes. Some method for benchmarking older vs. newer versions of the same script would help too. 02:20:34 <@auntdeen2> good idea, gitwut... how would you do that? 02:20:52 I think classification of recipes is difficult 02:21:36 I had several ideas that I put fort in a feedback, but it was slightly off-topic and didn't stir much interest. Let me see if I can find the feedback. 02:21:46 forth* 02:21:52 <@auntdeen2> true tokens... but maybe a system of simply keywords? 02:23:06 yes, that was the gist of it 02:23:08 sorry, I was afk, but it would help me to actually see a video of someone hand manipulating an actual puzzle. For example, I can't make sense out of the cutpoint stuff. Why would you want to use it? etc. 02:23:52 <@auntdeen2> I think that would help many 02:24:03 http://fold.it/portal/node/993061 02:24:04 Well, I would like a classification, but for me it seems like utopia. Even start game, mid game and end game doesn't really make sense for scripts 02:24:18 <@auntdeen2> even the oldest vets have a learning curve when it comes to new tools 02:24:40 mutate, structural, utility, etc 02:25:23 The thing is to be able to assign multiple tags for each script 02:25:52 settlers, quakes, fuzes 02:26:10 symmetry 02:26:24 I would like to have a permanent practice protein to play with so I could try out the scripts etc before I actually need them. maybe that's dumb? lol 02:26:43 you can create contests 02:26:49 <@auntdeen2> greepski - that's an awesome idea 02:26:59 <@auntdeen2> go feedback that! 02:27:08 it would be nice to have a few permanent proteins available as a test bed for scripts 02:27:28 yes, that is a good idea 02:27:30 <@auntdeen2> yes - something smallish but not too small 02:27:50 gitwut: I see I already answered you comments in that feedback. I still dont think it makes sense in practice to classify scripts like that 02:28:50 <@auntdeen2> tokens - do you think that a keyword/tag system might be helpful for some folders? 02:29:05 Why not? It's no differnt than using labels to categorize your gmail. 02:31:22 And, it's something to go by--as opposed to nothing whatsoever. 02:31:35 <@auntdeen2> because I have folded for so long, I have many scripts and am familiar with most of them... but will admit that occasionally I get a surprise to find out that one will do mutate, also 02:31:55 well, a classification might help beginners to get started. But it might might also reduce creativity with regards to how you use scripts 02:32:50 a good script writer would write what the script is capable of in the comments of the script 02:33:17 I don't see it, tokens. Even with classifications you'll still get stuck or find something that works better. But it's a starting point. 02:33:18 oh I wish they all did that 02:33:22 I usually look at the source code of my scripts, so I don't have the problem of not knowing what a script can do 02:33:50 <@auntdeen2> I get what you are saying about limiting... but tokens, many do not open the scripts to see the code 02:33:52 hi 02:33:54 Assuming all scripts contain no bugs 02:33:57 there's only a small percentage that can do that 02:34:05 read the source 02:34:22 and understand it 02:34:22 <@auntdeen2> true 02:34:46 imagain if recipies and scrips didnt exist 02:34:50 <@auntdeen2> I can read it and get general understanding - but mod, no 02:34:52 well, another thing is that I think it would be hard for people to agree on a classification in the first place 02:35:26 and there are so many combo scripts now, they would just end up with all the tags 02:35:28 how difficalt would this game be> 02:35:30 ? 02:35:50 My point of view is that scripts are too complex for any classification to make sense 02:36:02 I agree 02:36:07 haha 02:36:15 but I would love to be proven wrong 02:36:17 <@auntdeen2> true Brick - and the way it's going, more scripts are ttempting to cover all bases these days 02:37:19 <@auntdeen2> but for the older scripts, it would be nice to have them semi-classified 02:37:23 lol 02:37:31 fix the recipe editor with line numbers 02:37:59 also list update times for recipes within cookbook to help keep track of versions 02:38:41 Regular copy/paste/select would be nice too. 02:39:45 little images of the shared protein structures to help users decide which ones to evolve 02:40:10 should we all just revive our favorite feedback cases? 02:41:05 the little images could even rotate around like characters in Mario Kart do 02:41:33 I don't think a small image would do any difference jeff. You wouldn't be able to see much 02:41:35 We can't even get all script writers to use a universal naming convention. 02:41:47 How on earth can we classify them properly? 02:42:12 somehow youtube classifies videos in a useful manner 02:42:30 What does V2 mean? Depends on which script you are looking at. 02:43:46 there are ways to compare text files. some schools use plagiarism detectors that look for common text 02:45:21 Another issue with scripts are the disappearing act when someone makes a change without changing the name before a save. 02:45:38 <@auntdeen2> and that seems to be a bug, smiling 02:45:49 operator error. 02:45:54 yes some decent form of version control for scripts would be great 02:46:14 common sense would seem to dictate the changing of the name when making a change. 02:46:20 ones that are parents/children could be sorted easily enough 02:47:18 sometimes names don't change because the new version is meant to replace the old one 02:47:31 old one had some bug, new one has fixed the bug 02:47:38 most of the time it is someone making their own favourite change 02:47:58 <@auntdeen2> and... many never even know that there is a bug 02:48:07 if cookbook kept track of authors as well as names, that might help 02:48:45 same name but different author gives separate recipe in cookbook 02:48:50 naming convention is greatest issue that I see. coupled with proper discriptive comments 02:49:36 It's really easy for me. I only used scripts from a very select few. 02:50:03 don't want to use someones experiment that wiggles it into cement 02:50:46 Pause button for scripts would be my #1 wish 02:50:55 every user probably gathers impressions about each recipe 02:51:21 there could be a place in cookbook for users to put their own notes for each recipe 02:52:13 If you really like a recipe a lot you can simply save it to self under a slightly changed name and make extensive comments. 02:52:29 <@auntdeen2> many good ideas here tonite - and many older requests still hanging fire and wanted 02:52:35 if this info went back to the Foldit site, they could crunch it all together to make a global description of the code 02:52:38 scripts no longer autounshare when changed 02:53:01 As of when brow? 02:53:03 I would love to see them implementing design of new molecules (which there was talk about some time ago). That would be a whole new game to have design puzzles where you had to design a ligand for a protein 02:53:07 2-3 weeks 02:53:24 Good to know brow 02:54:17 Do the changed ones go up in place of the original? 02:54:38 they do when reshared 02:55:09 I general I prefer the developers to work on new features, rather than small changes to the existing features 02:55:30 So, I save a combo to my group and someone makes a change and unbeknownst to me it is now different? 02:55:37 I prefer not to have an entire change history like some source code repository 02:55:41 <@auntdeen2> there are many scripts where the old versions are better for certain types of puzzles than the newest 02:56:03 no, smilingone. only you can save and reshare the script 02:56:12 when people use Save As, the script becuse a child 02:56:35 peple who are not authors of the script cannot save the script, they must use Save As, the UI forces this. 02:56:39 yes, but, what happens when someone else uses save instead of save as? 02:57:33 are you sure brow? 02:57:54 very. These used to be marked 'Read Only' in the old cookbook. 02:58:09 The Save button is greyed out on any script you download 02:58:21 is it possible for users to manually say their recipe is a child of another one? 02:58:35 since the Foldit editor is so bad, folks often use other editors 02:58:46 it is possible to hack the system in the client, although I don't know what wouold happen when you try to upload it 03:00:05 if you edit outside and then paste the entire changed recipe into the editor, the editor doesn't know if it was made from scratch or adapted from someone else's code 03:00:15 correct 03:01:09 so the automatically determined parent/child relationship won't occur 03:01:46 correct. It's not automatic. It happens when you use 'Save As' in a buffer that belongs to an existing script. 03:02:17 how to establish the parent/child relationship manually? 03:02:31 Save As works fine. 03:02:48 open script. clear code. paste code. Save As. 03:03:18 Save will be grey unless you own the script. 03:04:03 If you've already saved it from an empty buffer so that it has no parent, then there isn't a legit way to create that relationship after the fact. 03:09:59 <@auntdeen2> thanks everyone for a lively and informative discussion... 03:10:22 <@auntdeen2> it would be great to see some feedbacks :-) 03:11:48 <@auntdeen2> ...or you can rely on my memory banks to try to pass most of this onto the devs at some point :-P 03:13:12 <@auntdeen2> greepski - thanks for doing feedback, have uprated :-) 03:14:16 Hoops! http://fold.it/portal/node/992670 03:14:51 like bands, but the protein can slide through them, so really more like pullies or the eye of a needle 03:16:15 <@auntdeen2> jeff - is that the same as freeze/lock in space? 03:16:29 I disagree that it is a duplicate 03:16:46 would you do me a favor and bump it as not a duplicate? 03:17:24 <@auntdeen2> okay... then go do another comment which explains why it isn't - why it's different - and reopen yourself :-) 03:17:33 <@auntdeen2> that would be more effective 03:18:19 <@auntdeen2> I think that although you put a lot of thought into the concept, most people perhaps don't have the vision yet 03:33:38 I just stumbled upon this auntdeen 03:33:40 http://www.backupproject.org/ 03:37:17 If we could move the protein EXACTLY where we want it, with strength 1000 bands, and then thread that the way the alignment tool works, you'd have what Jeff is asking 03:43:42 something that lets the protein move like a snake, worm, or centipede would help 03:44:45 AA1 moves forward, then AA2 takes the position AA1 used to be in, then AA3 moves to where AA2 was, etc. 03:46:09 that would be interesting 03:53:51 if you like the idea, please up-vote it at http://fold.it/portal/node/992670 03:54:38 I will read it 03:55:06 thanks 03:56:52 Your idea is interesting I justed finished reading it. 03:59:20 hoops are like tees and holes on a golf course 04:01:19 tightly coiled proteins will take more AA's to go from one hoop to another, sort of like people using the 9 iron for every shot on a golf course 04:03:15 no matter how many shots (amino acids) it takes, the golfer still has to go through every tee and hole (hoop) in a specified order 04:03:34 That's more like croquet. ... 04:27:36 Better teaching tools, of course. We chat mods aren't always here. 04:27:39 <@auntdeen2> I know - you want better hoof to protein interface 04:27:53 Yes, yes. SO hard to fold with hooves. 04:28:21 lol 04:28:31 Still waiting for Kinect For Horses for FoldIt. 04:28:32 <@auntdeen2> those who wished that seemed to think that webinar (live) lessons with video for posting on website after would be best 04:30:11 <@auntdeen2> so much has changed since the last test videos and the youtubes were done 04:30:22 It would be nice to actually see someone go through their process of folding. ... 04:32:23 <@auntdeen2> yep - the players on top teams have a small advantage by seeing screenshots, etc - but even within teams video is priceless - and for foldit as a whole, becoming necessary 04:33:22 We have the ability to record FoldIt play with audio. Once life at the Hacienda calms down, I could see putting together a short training video or videos. 04:34:08 <@auntdeen2> when I was skyed into the dev meeting I attended, zoran was talking about webinars... 04:34:26 Sweetness. What kinds of software would we need? 04:34:38 <@auntdeen2> I suspect that the devs can probably provide the tools for that and for video recording them 04:35:05 <@auntdeen2> they may be able to get pro tools that we wouldn't want to pay for individually 04:35:23 I still want to see different players' approaches to the game. Would they actually buy software for us to use? 04:36:06 How about they set up a PayPal or WePay account for us to donate to, to help buy the stuff? 04:36:18 <@auntdeen2> I found an excellent remote viewer, JoinMe - but it doesn't work for Linux :-( 04:36:24 I know Boots' credit card would come in handy for that. :-) 04:36:32 <@auntdeen2> lol Trig 04:37:15 <@auntdeen2> I think that we need to make the case to them that they should provide (it seemed as if zoran was heading in that direction) 04:37:50 up in approval to that idea 04:37:56 <@auntdeen2> but if not, then yeah - maybe we could all contribute a bit for the right license to make it easier 04:38:29 <@auntdeen2> and the devs do need however to find a way for the website to accommodate hd video 04:38:57 And free ourselves from YouTube? 04:45:13 <@auntdeen2> our proteins have gotten so complex - like the electron density - that we need both HD and good size 04:45:46 <@auntdeen2> there is still nowhere that I'm aware of that's easy and free and able to upload unlimited 04:45:52 But isn't that going to severely limit our freinds with lesser computers? 04:46:07 <@auntdeen2> and since we do actually have a foldit website - should go there 04:46:15 <@auntdeen2> in what respect? 04:46:32 <@auntdeen2> all I would like to see is exactly what we see ingame 04:46:36 Actually, lesser internet connections. 04:46:41 <@auntdeen2> with that clarity and size 04:47:22 <@auntdeen2> if we need to post non-hd additionally, that's easy 04:47:31 Fair enough. 04:47:52 <@auntdeen2> but it needs to be on foldit website 04:48:06 <@auntdeen2> even the wikia has limitations for what we need 04:48:11 Do they have the server space for all that data? 04:48:21 <@auntdeen2> well 04:48:26 <@auntdeen2> have no idea 04:48:41 I am thinking they have only one server. 04:48:51 <@auntdeen2> but considering that at least once a month we have chat or website issues... 04:48:57 Which crashes with alarming regularity. 04:49:16 <@auntdeen2> maybe they need to finally move the website and chat to the same setup as the game 04:49:57 <@auntdeen2> they spend little enough resources on players :-) 04:51:09 <@auntdeen2> lol - in fact, the hosting company I use has unlimited storage and bandwidth - for slightly over a hundred a year 04:51:51 <@auntdeen2> if they are that tight financially, then we have much bigger problems than videos :-P 04:52:32 It is a university-sponsored thing. I think it's all dependent on grant money. Grants aren't for forever. 04:52:49 <@auntdeen2> that's true 04:53:15 We helped Rav get up to speed. We can do the same for the Baker group. 04:53:30 <@auntdeen2> and if that's the case, then maybe we can go the paypal route :-) 04:57:29 It helped that some of the AD team lifted me up there. I am not solely to blame for that. 04:57:54 rofl 04:58:07 <@auntdeen2> sooo.... fyi, one reason I am on the bandwagon about the videos is that our team is about to release a technique that many of us use, when casp is done 04:58:21 <@auntdeen2> huh - I didn't see that, Trig 04:58:21 Of course... AFTER. :-p 04:58:35 <@auntdeen2> lol 04:58:56 <@auntdeen2> the reason is that it is not very effective for the refinement puzzles 04:59:17 Is that you CAN'T FREAKIN' WALK puzzles any more! 04:59:32 <@auntdeen2> and all of us are flat out anyway - best to do it when everyone wants to play with something new 05:01:59 <@auntdeen2> Trig - we earlier discussed briefly the demise of walking :-( 05:02:58 Has anyone ever given a proper explanation to why it's no longer viable? 05:03:57 <@auntdeen2> sigh - I'd kinda like them to just put it back the way it was 05:03:58 but he backtracked very quickly when I called that an "official" explanation 05:03:59 You can't walk even from square one. 05:04:16 <@auntdeen2> yeah - I've seen that 05:04:35 Contenders has proof it doesn't work at all. 05:04:37 <@auntdeen2> I'd like to see them nail that down before they introduce anything else 05:04:52 <@auntdeen2> then - send it on to the devs!!!! 05:05:04 We have. 05:05:09 <@auntdeen2> good 05:05:09 Fallen on deaf ears. 05:05:21 <@auntdeen2> agh 05:05:49 <@auntdeen2> maybe we as players need to give the devs a list of what we would like as priorities 05:06:01 <@auntdeen2> like fixing walking 05:06:04 When I skyped with David Baker, I said just that. 05:06:08 <@auntdeen2> a pause button 05:06:09 And he agreed. 05:06:39 <@auntdeen2> then - end of week when casp is done - time to work on that 05:07:04 will there be a global chat with the devs any time soon? 05:08:02 my guess is beta's been too busy to organize one 05:08:03 <@auntdeen2> none are scheduled - but I suspect that there will be not too long after casp end 05:09:16 it's been a while 05:11:14 <@auntdeen2> well - besides a lot of work for casp, the devs have had conferences - and vacations like many for summer 05:11:52 classes will start soon too. college professors are busy folks Category:Chat